authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Last post had some typos. I think that's John Hyrcanus.
Tiresias: I remember reading that too. Does anyone remember the information about how those in the temple area were smelting gold and some of it dripped or filtered down in the foundation stones and over the years had accumulated, and that the Roman armies were intent on taking apart those stones to get that gold? I don't remember the source of that. It is interesting if true, given Jesus' prophecy about those stones.
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
TD, kaik: All this is educational and revealing. Things like the Hasmonean dynasty, John Hycanus, Hellenization, sects and parties, taxation, etc. Outside reading form well informed sources..helps put a lot of things in perspective. But I think we (I) may have hijacked the OP. Sorry..but i think it is somewhat related.
Fisherman: Required: "important" = "Too many cooks spoil the broth". Cliche = "A trite or overused expression or idea."(Dictionary) Here's another..one that I was guilty of as a JW: "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts". Not any more, I'll keep learning and sorting-with a relatively open mind. All too often we get presented with the facts, whatever their source, and we are unwilling to accept them. The inquiring mind will still investigate what's presented, especially if the source displays validity. "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". Ben Franklin. That sort of described me when I was first awakening.
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Fisherman: "The time period you mention is not part of the inspired writings". I hope you're not suggesting that that history should then be ignored or disqualified. It is failrly well recognized and accepted that the apocryphal books of 1 & 2 Maccabees is fairly, historically accurate. There are other instances where we must rely on history to have justification for our conclusions. Since there are no dates in the Bible, secular history must be relied upon. This subject is well covered in several posts here when deciding the destruction of Jerusalem of Nebuadnezzars day. The evidence exposes 1914 C.E. as a false conclusion, because the destruction of Jerusalem is not 607 B.C.E., but rather 587/586. Depending how you look at that, it will either destroy your faith or strengthen it.
The immediate predecessors of Mary and Joseph must come from sources other than inspired writings as they are traced after the last OT book.
Couple of questions: When do the Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes and Synogogues first appear in Jewish history? From where or from what did they originate? What of the ancestry of the Herods and party of Herod? What impact did any of this have on early Christians, the majority of whom were previously of one of those influences. Jesus and the Apostles had to deal with all of it. How were priests such as Ananias and Caiaphus appointed, and which sect did they represent? Did HS appoint them? If it's important to you, how would you be able to sort out who the King of the North or King of the South was or is? To name but a few.
I think we're going to need the help of some uninspired resources, that is if we're trying to acquire truth and well being, especially after having been misled, willingly or not.
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Fisherman..For the most part, most of us with a history in the WT org would never have known much of the history of Israel particulary the time period after the writings of Malachi. As I mentioned in an earlier post that time period is in part that of the Maccabean time period, circa 200-300 BCE. A lot happened during that time period that changed the face of Israel or Judah. Not the least of which were those appointed to the priesthood including the high priest. The Jewish nation became vassels to several dominating powers who had considerable influence on their religious processes. The Qumran population argued that the priesthood in Jerusalem was not legitimate. It went through the motions, but was apostate. The Herods eventually appointed the high priest. It would be difficult to accept that God's H.S. was the force behind those rulers.
For some background on this I found and would recommend 2 books by F. F. Bruce: "Israel and the Nations" & "New Testiment History". Also "The Dead Sea Scrolls: The Truth Behind the Mystique" by Lawrence H. Schiffmann (I listened to the audio discs in a series of 14 lectures while driving). Obviously there are many more resources, some already mentioned on this thread. If you were educated (indoctrinated) as I was by WT theology, one can understand why they would discourage outside reading and research. This stuff was fascinating. Whether it is completely correct, I wouldn't know, but there is enough documentation to make it very compelling, and certainly broadens out what was previously a very controlled interpretation of events given by the Org.
Hopefully all of us here will gain confidence in our decisions to leave behind ignorance and mind control, and expand in knowledge. We may end up in different dens, but we're better equipped to help those still under the spell. It's just so difficult to convey it to them...darn!
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Apog..Could be that's what Fisherman meant, or not. Maybe he'll clear it up. As I commented earlier, evidence just in scripture seems to indicate that Revelation was written prior to 70, maybe in the early 60's, because, for one, no Bible writer refers to the catostrophic event as having taken place. Rev. 1:1 "...to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place". So if he gave the Revelation to John of Patmos at an earlier time, those things would be happening shortly, soon, imminently, which I don't think equate to 2000 years future. J.S. Russell also discusses why the writing date of 96 or 98 has it's problems. Since most of end time religions depend on things like the GT and Armageddon as being future, this conclusion really turns things around and certainly challenges those who have set dates for those things happening in our time..or in my Dad's time or his Mom's time..whatever.
Regarding 666/616 equaling Nero, it is fascinating or at least intriguing as well. J.S. Russell comments on that in the book "Parousia" with a similar conclusion. That particular part isn't that important to me..it could very well be..but it sure is more reasonable than 6 to the 3rd power being short of 7 (perfection) that is found in Wt literature.
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Fisherman..Are you stating that revelation was written after 70 and then support that by reading Rev. 1:1? Just not sure what you mean to say..
kaik..You appear to have done a fair amount of reading and research. I've appreciated some of your other posts. I defer to scholarship and evidence for I am but an upstart even at my age. I think the OP wanted to draw attention to who Babylon the Great is NOT according to Wt. theology. Those who come to this board, if they're like me, are looking for reassurance that they're making the right decision that they've been misled and want to pursue answers that replace flawed teachings. It's fascinating and exilerating to at least realize with some confidence that the decision to leave the org is based on some merit.
I have a couple of observations and questions that perhaps you and TD can address. At the risk of being a Bible thumper..I don't think that Jesus or the apostles were what we now call anti semetic. It appears they had to deal with some radical factions of Judaism and were often in fear of their lives because of it. Jesus made the comment to the Samaritan woman that the "truth originated with the Jews" and that he himself kept the law. Peter's letters appear to be addressed to the Jews in the diaspora. He likely was aware that there were many Jews throughout the land(s) and had been there for at least 700 years. His letters were to comfort and assure them. Jude seeems to have done the same. Could it be that the apostate representative of that faith, represented by Jerusalem and it's priesthood, was the target and not the Jews? It seems to parallel what happened to Jerusalem in Nebuchadnezzar's time. Some of the tribal lands were not affected by the destruction of Jerusalem i.e., tribe of Benjamin was alive and well. So you would appear to be correct that those in the Diaspora were mostly unaffected.
How do you see it and how might it help those lurking or wanting confirmation?
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
TD. I've read a lot more on this subject than most JWs, but a lot less than some on this board. I could never be accused of being very sholarly. The subject of who was/is Babylon the Great is intriguing, and as time permits, I will pursue the subject. Reading more on the subject from the likes of Eisenman or Wilson will be interesting and helpful for sure, but for the moment..learning that the WT interpretation of who she is and other related teachings/doctrines is the result of the wild imagination of a self appointed bible scholar. Which includes among other things the ridiculous interpretaion of the bowls and trumpets. This as opposed to what I would call a much better researched and rational conclusion. So as I mentioned earlier, J.S. Russell's work may need adjustments or refining, albeit by later scholars, but the responsible and reasonable reader should be able to conclude that the prophecy was not meant for a 20th (now 21st century) fulfillment. The tail chasing engaged by the present teachers of this org leave little doubt that we've been on the wrong road. I know I was. Anyway thanks for the tip.
I hope the OP and the other contributors continue, I find it interesting and satisfying.
authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
Thanks Tiresias for starting this topic. I read the "Parousia" by J.S. Russell and was at the same time conducting the Book Study when we last studied "Revelation Climax..." Talk about a conflict. Essentially the book was a jaw dropper for me. It took me places that one would never experience as a JW. I hope this thread continues for a while as I havn't really talked about it for quite some time. When one realizes that this book was written before C.T. Russell, and had he read it, the blunders of his prophetic understanding (especially re: the Revelation by John), might have been avoided. It makes a lot of sense, and will change how one reads and understands the Bible and what to expect in the future. The others who have commented seem to see it that way as well.
An interesting observation for me, was a comment that the "Insight" book and the "All Scripture.." book, both mention that the book of Jude was likely written in the 60's (if I recall), because the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned. Pity they didn't apply that to all the writings of John. No Bible book mentions it, and this event would never have been ignored by any Bible writers if the past recordings is of any value. I think this alone suggests an earlier writing of Revelation. This understanding dovetails with comments made by several of the apostles concerning struggles Christians were having with Jews. Using a cryptic expression for Jerusalem (Babylon) could likely keep them out of harms way. Like all good Bible commentators, if J.S. Russell were still alive, he likely would make some adjustments, especially with the research tools we have today. I kinda think partial preterism is viable.
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How do you attach something from a folder or other documents?
i have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).. for many years i've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.. i was aware, in broad terms, of luther, calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including jws) arose.
i was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?).
i was quite interested to read, while living in cyprus, a greek orthodox english language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism.
Oops!
Good suggestion. The period of time that was fascinating to me was the period from Malachi to the 1st century. Understanding what happened during that time helps understand that the audience of Jesus and the apostles as well, was not the audience of the previous prophets. The Maccadean period and the Herods brought the Jewish world into a sectarian pot luck. By the time Jesus started preaching, there had formed the Pharisees, Saducees, Essennes and a militant revolutionary group. The only group that seemed to survive the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 were the Pharisees. There's a couple of books written by F.F. Bruce on the period mentioned above and then the early Christian period. Both worth a read.
